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TODAY'S TIMES

BORROWED OPINIONS
The Socialists Are Coming! The Socialists Are Coming!

The epithet of choice these days for Republicans who oppose any expansion of government’s role in health care programs is “socialized” medicine.

Rudy Giuliani has used the “s-word” to denounce legislation that would enlarge a children’s health insurance program and to besmirch Hillary Clinton’s health plan. Mitt Romney has added a xenophobic twist, calling the Clinton plan “European-style socialized medicine,” while ignoring its similarities to a much-touted health care reform he championed as governor of Massachusetts. Other conservative critics have wielded the “s-word” to deplore efforts to expand government health care programs or regulation over the private health care markets.

Our political discourse is so debased that the term is typically applied where it is least appropriate and never applied where it most fits the case.

No one has the nerve to brand this country’s purest systems of “socialized medicine” — the military and veterans hospitals — for what they are. In both systems, care is not only paid for by the government but delivered in government facilities by doctors who are government employees. Even so, a parade of Washington’s political dignitaries, including President Bush, has turned to the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Md., for checkups and treatment, without ideological complaint. Politicians who deplore government-run health care for average Americans are only too happy to use it themselves.

Nor are they eager to tar the vast array of government hospitals and clinics that serve our nation’s veterans. For one thing, the veterans’ hospitals, once considered a second-rate backwater, now lead their private sector competitors in adopting electronic medical records and score well for delivering high quality care at relatively low cost. Even when the veterans’ hospitals were rightly criticized this year for their part in the disgraceful failure to care adequately for soldiers injured in Iraq and Afghanistan, there was no clamor to junk or privatize the system, only demands to make it better.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg startled most New Yorkers two years ago when he asserted that the city’s public hospitals are “better than the great teaching hospitals” all around them. Although some deemed his praise hyperbolic, the city’s billionaire, entrepreneurial, free-market-enriched mayor thought he knew quality when he saw it, even if it was socialist at its core.

The country’s vast Medicare program is one step less socialized — a “single-payer” program in which the government pays for the care and sets reimbursement rates, but the actual care is delivered by private doctors and hospitals. When Medicare was launched in 1965 it was routinely denounced as socialized medicine, but it has become so popular that politicians deem it the third rail of American politics, sure to electrocute anyone who tries to cut it or privatize it. No politician is eager to brand 43 million beneficiaries as socialists at heart.

Meanwhile, the two current butts of the “s-word” are such hybrids of public and private elements that it is hard to know how to characterize them. The State Children’s Health Insurance Program, or S-chip, was denigrated by one Republican congressman this week as “a government-run socialized wolf masquerading in the sheep skin of children’s health.” It might better be thought of as a “double-payer system” in which the states and the federal government put up the money, the states take the lead in defining the program and the actual care is typically delivered through private health plans by private doctors and hospitals.

The “s-word” seems even less appropriate for Senator Clinton’s proposed universal health care plan, which seeks to bolster employer-provided health benefits and create new purchasing pools to help individuals buy private policies at low group rates.

True, her plan would expand government regulation, and she wants to make a Medicare-like option available to compete with private policies. But that would only lead to a socialized, single-payer system if everybody were to choose the Medicare-like option.

There is no special magic in government-run or government-financed health care. Medicare has serious cost-control and financing problems, and the veterans’ hospitals could take a turn for the worse, as they have in the past, should federal funding shrivel. Private health care systems have strengths of their own, are favored by many patients and often provide care as good as any.

The take-home message for voters is this: Look behind the labels to judge health care proposals on their merits. Whenever you hear a candidate denounce something as a step toward socialized medicine, it probably isn’t. More likely the politician is demagoguing the issue or is abysmally ignorant of the inner workings — and real, not ideological, failings — of the country’s multifaceted health care system.

Wendy said:
 
I just love how the party lines are so drawn that each side starts calling the other names and "bagging" (for lack of a better term) on the others policies without even looking at what they really are.

I think the thing this country might best benefit from at this point in time is an eradication of party lines. No more Republican, No more Democrat, just AMERICANS. Utopia, I know...

Anyone else beginning to feel like we are in the middle of an Orwell novel?
 
posted 785 days ago
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TWO LEGS BAAAAD.....
FOUR LEGS GOOD.
(animal farm)
 
posted 785 days ago
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longhorn said:
 
TWO LEGS BAAAAD.....
FOUR LEGS GOOD.

I sure looks that way to me Tracy!

Cows with guns...
 
posted 785 days ago
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longhorn said:
 
Just fyi, ot.

My chickens are laying about a dozen eggs a day.

HEEEEEELLLLLPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!
 
posted 785 days ago
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longhorn said:
 
So I guess two legs arent all bad, as long as some wings are attached.

Ummmmm. Wings.....
 
posted 785 days ago
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longhorn said:
 
OK, here is the last of the silver sow report.

Wheat closed and opened in WaKeeney at $8.41. Record highs again. And the small grains report came out this morning, noting that wheat supplies will get nothing but tighter. I dont think they are gonna like the "acres planted" report either as more acres are going to ethanol corn.

Wheat futures are bright and bullish, so for us out here, the future's so bright we gotta wear shades. However...

If you buy food, you are screwed is the bottom line. I heard this morning that ALL the fast food chains are predicting rising prices with no end in sight. And the economy is not growing as fast as inflation in food, health care, and energy costs.

Congratulations repukes. Stagflation returns.
 
posted 785 days ago
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longhorn said:
 
So speaking of socialism, Marxism, and "leftist" labels, you can see it daily over at the other place. SO much for the wingnuts NOT marching in lockstep or reposting the daily gop talking points.

And given the wheat situation, could bread lines be far behind? I guess bush DID like what he saw in putin's "soul".
 
posted 785 days ago
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Vaughn Tolle said:
 
The labeling to which lh refers creates a certain feeling of deja vu all over again (thanks to the draft thread below) for those of us who can recall the late 60s and early 70s.

lh, whatta ya want to bet that some of those throwing these labels around "over there" think Nixon was innocent of any wrongdoing, and that Reagan, et al., did nothing wrong in conjunction with Iran-Contra, etc., and I would further bet that some of them will tell you that the Senate Select Committee on Watergate was a "fishing expedition".....
 
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Danny said:
 
Clinton's plan for healthcare is far from 'government/socialized' medicine. If anybody has bothered to read it, it just states that it is mandatory for people to have insurance(be it government subsidized or private insurance with I believe tax breaks). So I think calling her plan socialized is incorrect, though it does have some government plans in place for those below a certain point. This is a simplified view, of course.

I think that theory behind everybody having to have some type of insurance would in turn lower costs of insurance all around. With those who are healthy paying premiums that they are not taking advantage of, where as those who are generally unhealthy benefiting from lower premiums. It is just one way to get coverage for everybody. Regardless, being government supplied or private supplied we all pay for it one way or another is how I see it.

Which way is better? Private insurance or government insurance? I don't know that there is an easy answer here. On the one hand, we do a large amount of research in regards to medicine here, which is probably support in some part(small or large I don't know) by the large medical bills. With government health insurance, the bare minimum I think would be what is covered(to reduce tax burdens) and thus would research dollars go away, and cause less research to be done here?

I think that by using the system(private insurance) in place, however bad it may be and regulating that industry better would be the place to start. So I'm not too terribly concerned about Clinton's plan. With a few exceptions about deductibles, it seems like something that could work, if tax deductions can help to pay for the premiums, or have fall back plans for those that can not afford it.

With that, I'm not a big supporter of Clinton but her health plan doesn't seem too bad. I'd like to see a little bit more about how well this works in Mass. before really saying one way or the other if I like it.
 
posted 785 days ago
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Of course I am a health care system expert analyst.
self-appointed
H.C.S.E.A.(S.A.)
Problem is that I only know what the problems are,
not how to fix'em.
Not only is my Wife a professional patient, also my closest (talkative) neighbor at work is married to a local doctor who also has an office here at my place of work. She doctors our whole family because my employer pays for all office calls when you see her here at work. Which is nice.
Soooo.......I hear the whole story from both sides, doctor and patient.
 
posted 785 days ago
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Wendy said:
 
I still think, like I said yesterday, that it comes down to preventiong.

An analogy for you:

You work at a rental car company who does not follow a "full-tank" policy (i.e. car may not have a full tank when it is rented out) but rather a "replace what you use" policy. One branch gets many complaints about the difficulties of this method and decides to implement a full tank policy. For the first few months, there is a large increase in the fuel expense at that branch as they struggle to get every car in their fleet to a full tank (the theory being that once the car has a full tank, it should always have a full tank as the customer is responsible for refilling it, and is subject to charge if they do not). After these months pass, you see a stabilization in the cost as the above mentioned theory begins to fall in to place. At this time, the branch begins "preselling" fuel (i.e. an estimated amount based on local fuel prices and the size of a fuel tank so customers are saved the expense of having to refill the gas themselves - with options of prepurchasing 1/4, 1/21 ,3/4, and a full tank.) After a few months of doing this, the branch begins to realize an increase in revenue on fuel as inevitably people will prepay for more than what it takes to refill the tank. Now, the company is not doing anything to force the prepay option, and offers only when asked....

It's a basic scenario, but one which I think could be easily applied to the thought of healthcare - as you think that yes for the first few years as we work to catch people up on the healthcare they have missed we may see an increase, but after a few years, we will be caught up and be able to focus on "preventative" medicine which will eventually put us ahead...

Anyone?
 
posted 785 days ago
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Vaughn Tolle said:
 
Wendy, I like your analogy. It is yet to be determined what will happen in Massachusetts with the plan Mitt is trying now to disown down the road. From the limited reading I've done, the Massachusetts plan has proved more costly than initially estimated, and there are some who should be covered thereby who are resisting/not covered, for reasons I'm not sure about right now.
 
posted 785 days ago
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Wendy said:
 
Vaughn,

I would imagine part of it is the "good old boy" mentality of I can take care of my own... My best friend's husband is like that. by the time they were 21, they had two kids 14 months apart (yes, you CAN get pregnant while nursing!) he is making barely above minimum wage, and she can't work because it would cost them more in childcare than what she would make working on a high school education - and he refused to accept any kind of assistance. She finally told him "I am getting the kids medical cards whether you like it or not". But he wouldn't let her apply for anything else, even though with his salary they qualified for every assistance available. As soon as the kids were in school she went back to work to help with expenses, but still... But I bet that may be a contributing factor to those that are resisting - not so much a cost thing as an "I can take care of my own" thing... which you are going to have anywhere - HOWEVER a lot of people who subscribe to that philosophy would probably accept reduced premiums as an alternative, because then at least they are contributing to their care..
 
posted 785 days ago
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Vaughn Tolle said:
 
Yep, Wendy; my mother could attest to that, with the last two boys being born 15 months apart.

Your analysis of the "I can take care of my own" may be right on point; I really hadn't thought about that one.
 
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Danny said:
 
Wendy,

"I can take care of my own" while partially true, I was able to take care of my own. Because one of my jobs offered insurance that I could afford. It wasn't great by any stretch of the imagination but it did cover all the basic needs and necessities. It was for that reason I chose not to pursue Healthwave though I did qualify and it would have saved money, I felt I wasn't hurting so there wasn't a need to have to use it. The fact that it was there though should the need have arisen was fine though. I guess, I'm not sure that insurance should necessarily be forced on people, but at the same time if it is, the more people on it, the lower the costs generally become.
 
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